The Collected Works of Chögyam Trungpa: Volume 6 by Chögyam Trungpa
Authors: Chögyam Trungpa
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trying to create a fixed, ideal state of meditation is not the point. You can’t have a fixed, ideal state of meditation because the situation of six realms will be continuously changing.
S: I mean, we’ve spent all our lives in these six realms, but through meditation we can learn to see which realm we’re in, and how to deal with them?
TR: That isn’t the purpose of meditation, but somehow it happens that way. Actual meditation practice is a constant act of freedom in the sense of being without expectation, without a particular goal, aim, and object. But as you practice meditation, as you go along with the technique, you begin to discover your present state of being. That is, we could almost say, a by-product of meditation. So it does happen that way, but is no good looking for it and trying to fit it into different degrees or patterns. That doesn’t work.
Student: When you just perceive something—smell, hear, see—and you don’t have any thought about anything for a very brief time, what world is that?
Trungpa Rinpoche: Any world. Sure, any world.
Student: Are people born with a quality of one of the worlds as predominant?
Trungpa Rinpoche: It seems there is one particular dominant characteristic—which is not particularly good and not particularly bad, but a natural character.
Student: Would sense perceptions be the same in all six realms?
Trungpa Rinpoche: The sense perceptions will be different. We are talking about the human situation, and in human life the six experiences of the world will be the same, of course, but your impressions of them will be different. Each thing we see, we see purely in terms of our own likes and dislikes, which happen all the time, and our associations. Certain trees, plants, and things may be irritating for some people; whereas for some other people they may be a good experience.
D ISCUSSION N EXT M ORNING
Student: Would you discuss briefly the similarities and differences between Zen practice and mahamudra practice?
Trungpa Rinpoche: Well, that has something to do with the evolutionary aspect of the teachings. The Zen tradition is the actual application of shunyata, or emptiness, practice, the heart of the mahayana teaching. Historically, the Zen method is based on dialectical principles—you engage in continual dialogues with yourself, asking questions constantly. By doing that, in the end you begin to discover that questions don’t apply anymore in relationship to the answer. That is a way of using up dualistic mind, based on the logic of Nagarjuna. The interesting point is that the practice of traditional Indian logic used by Hindu and Buddhist scholars is turned into experiential logic rather than just ordinary debate or intellectual argument. Logic becomes experiential. In other words, the subject and object of logical discussion are turned into mind and its projections—and that automatically, of course, becomes meditation. Once you begin to follow the whole endless process, everything begins to become nothing—but nothing becomes everything. It’s the same idea as the four statements of Prajnaparamita: form is emptiness, emptiness is form, form is no other than emptiness, emptiness is no other than form. 2 It’s kind of using up the abundance of hungry energy. Or, it could be said, self-deception is exposed by realizing that you don’t get any answers if you purely ask questions, but you do get answers if you don’t ask questions. But that in itself becomes a question, so in the end the whole thing is dropped completely: you don’t care anymore.
S: In Zen they talk about abrupt realization.
TR: That abruptness is referred to in the Zen tradition as the sword of Manjushri, which cuts through everything. It is symbolized in Zen practice by the stick (kyosaku) carried in the hall during meditation (zazen) practice. If a person wants to have sudden penetrations, or if a person is off his pattern, he’s reminded by being hit on the back—the sword of
S: I mean, we’ve spent all our lives in these six realms, but through meditation we can learn to see which realm we’re in, and how to deal with them?
TR: That isn’t the purpose of meditation, but somehow it happens that way. Actual meditation practice is a constant act of freedom in the sense of being without expectation, without a particular goal, aim, and object. But as you practice meditation, as you go along with the technique, you begin to discover your present state of being. That is, we could almost say, a by-product of meditation. So it does happen that way, but is no good looking for it and trying to fit it into different degrees or patterns. That doesn’t work.
Student: When you just perceive something—smell, hear, see—and you don’t have any thought about anything for a very brief time, what world is that?
Trungpa Rinpoche: Any world. Sure, any world.
Student: Are people born with a quality of one of the worlds as predominant?
Trungpa Rinpoche: It seems there is one particular dominant characteristic—which is not particularly good and not particularly bad, but a natural character.
Student: Would sense perceptions be the same in all six realms?
Trungpa Rinpoche: The sense perceptions will be different. We are talking about the human situation, and in human life the six experiences of the world will be the same, of course, but your impressions of them will be different. Each thing we see, we see purely in terms of our own likes and dislikes, which happen all the time, and our associations. Certain trees, plants, and things may be irritating for some people; whereas for some other people they may be a good experience.
D ISCUSSION N EXT M ORNING
Student: Would you discuss briefly the similarities and differences between Zen practice and mahamudra practice?
Trungpa Rinpoche: Well, that has something to do with the evolutionary aspect of the teachings. The Zen tradition is the actual application of shunyata, or emptiness, practice, the heart of the mahayana teaching. Historically, the Zen method is based on dialectical principles—you engage in continual dialogues with yourself, asking questions constantly. By doing that, in the end you begin to discover that questions don’t apply anymore in relationship to the answer. That is a way of using up dualistic mind, based on the logic of Nagarjuna. The interesting point is that the practice of traditional Indian logic used by Hindu and Buddhist scholars is turned into experiential logic rather than just ordinary debate or intellectual argument. Logic becomes experiential. In other words, the subject and object of logical discussion are turned into mind and its projections—and that automatically, of course, becomes meditation. Once you begin to follow the whole endless process, everything begins to become nothing—but nothing becomes everything. It’s the same idea as the four statements of Prajnaparamita: form is emptiness, emptiness is form, form is no other than emptiness, emptiness is no other than form. 2 It’s kind of using up the abundance of hungry energy. Or, it could be said, self-deception is exposed by realizing that you don’t get any answers if you purely ask questions, but you do get answers if you don’t ask questions. But that in itself becomes a question, so in the end the whole thing is dropped completely: you don’t care anymore.
S: In Zen they talk about abrupt realization.
TR: That abruptness is referred to in the Zen tradition as the sword of Manjushri, which cuts through everything. It is symbolized in Zen practice by the stick (kyosaku) carried in the hall during meditation (zazen) practice. If a person wants to have sudden penetrations, or if a person is off his pattern, he’s reminded by being hit on the back—the sword of
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