The Collected Works of Chögyam Trungpa: Volume 6 by Chögyam Trungpa Page B
Authors: Chögyam Trungpa
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and the lack of emphasis in mahamudra?
TR: Well, I think that the discipline which goes along with Zen practice is connected with the experience of being determined—being determined and willing to use up any dualistic notion. Therefore it is described in terms of struggle, or within the framework of discipline. Otherwise, if there were no framework around this notion of shunyata, or voidness, you wouldn’t have anything at all; you wouldn’t even have practice, because everything is nothing, absolute nothing. In order to bring out the notion of shunyata and voidness, you have to create a horizon, or some framework, which is discipline. That is necessary. That is what we all do in the practice of meditation: at the beginner’s level, we have disciplines or techniques, something to do. In the case of mahamudra, instead of putting discipline into situations, the situations bring out discipline for you. If you are lax, the situation reminds you, jerks you, and you’ll be pushed; if you are going too slow, if you are too careful, the situation will push you overboard.
S: Are we beginners, or are we advanced enough to disregard the techniques?
TR: It’s much safer to say that we’re all beginners, that we do need some act of sitting down and practicing. But, of course, the level of discipline in meditation practice is not only a conflict between mahamudra practice and the Zen tradition at all. It’s also connected with different styles of teaching, such as the Theravada tradition of Southeast Asia, Tibetan Buddhism, or the Chinese tradition. Each culture effects a different tradition and style of practice. Obviously, in the Zen tradition a lot of the formality is highly connected simply with Japanese culture rather than fundamental Buddhism. And the same thing could be said about Tibetan Buddhism as well—a lot of things came into it from the Tibetan cultural background, not from the actual teaching. Those cultural styles make a difference in some ways.
Student: Do you have to have some preparation for working in a mahamudra way? Does one have to be particularly conscious of the transition point from Zen to mahamudra?
Trungpa Rinpoche: Well, it happens as you grow. It would be too presumptuous for teachers to say that now you’re ready for mahamudra—in fact, it would be dangerous to say it. But if a student finds himself in the situation of mahamudra under the pretense of practicing Zen, he’ll find himself in a mahamudra situation automatically. Then of course he’ll accept that as the next process. But there wouldn’t be a big deal about relaxing from one technique to another technique at all; it would become a natural process for the student.
Student: When you say “situations,” do you mean the situations that arise in daily life?
Trungpa Rinpoche: I mean individual meditation experience as well as daily life and your relationship to it. Many people have heard about the principle of abhisheka and the initiations that are involved with mahamudra teachings or tantric teachings in general. But initiations aren’t degrees at all; initiations are the acceptance of you as a suitable candidate for the practice. There’s really only one initiation, and that’s the acceptance of your whole being, your whole attitude, as suitable to practice, that you are the right type of person. Beyond that, there’s no change of techniques and practices. It’s not like a staircase at all; everything’s a very evolutionary process. When you are on the first level, as you go along, you begin to develop possibilities and qualities of the next step. And then, as you begin to lose the idea that the first step is the only way, you begin to discover something else. You begin to grow like a tree. It is a very general process, and therefore it is very dangerous to pin down that you belong to a different type of experience, a different level.
Student: Both you and Shunryu Suzuki Roshi speak of the path as being dangerous. I always
TR: Well, I think that the discipline which goes along with Zen practice is connected with the experience of being determined—being determined and willing to use up any dualistic notion. Therefore it is described in terms of struggle, or within the framework of discipline. Otherwise, if there were no framework around this notion of shunyata, or voidness, you wouldn’t have anything at all; you wouldn’t even have practice, because everything is nothing, absolute nothing. In order to bring out the notion of shunyata and voidness, you have to create a horizon, or some framework, which is discipline. That is necessary. That is what we all do in the practice of meditation: at the beginner’s level, we have disciplines or techniques, something to do. In the case of mahamudra, instead of putting discipline into situations, the situations bring out discipline for you. If you are lax, the situation reminds you, jerks you, and you’ll be pushed; if you are going too slow, if you are too careful, the situation will push you overboard.
S: Are we beginners, or are we advanced enough to disregard the techniques?
TR: It’s much safer to say that we’re all beginners, that we do need some act of sitting down and practicing. But, of course, the level of discipline in meditation practice is not only a conflict between mahamudra practice and the Zen tradition at all. It’s also connected with different styles of teaching, such as the Theravada tradition of Southeast Asia, Tibetan Buddhism, or the Chinese tradition. Each culture effects a different tradition and style of practice. Obviously, in the Zen tradition a lot of the formality is highly connected simply with Japanese culture rather than fundamental Buddhism. And the same thing could be said about Tibetan Buddhism as well—a lot of things came into it from the Tibetan cultural background, not from the actual teaching. Those cultural styles make a difference in some ways.
Student: Do you have to have some preparation for working in a mahamudra way? Does one have to be particularly conscious of the transition point from Zen to mahamudra?
Trungpa Rinpoche: Well, it happens as you grow. It would be too presumptuous for teachers to say that now you’re ready for mahamudra—in fact, it would be dangerous to say it. But if a student finds himself in the situation of mahamudra under the pretense of practicing Zen, he’ll find himself in a mahamudra situation automatically. Then of course he’ll accept that as the next process. But there wouldn’t be a big deal about relaxing from one technique to another technique at all; it would become a natural process for the student.
Student: When you say “situations,” do you mean the situations that arise in daily life?
Trungpa Rinpoche: I mean individual meditation experience as well as daily life and your relationship to it. Many people have heard about the principle of abhisheka and the initiations that are involved with mahamudra teachings or tantric teachings in general. But initiations aren’t degrees at all; initiations are the acceptance of you as a suitable candidate for the practice. There’s really only one initiation, and that’s the acceptance of your whole being, your whole attitude, as suitable to practice, that you are the right type of person. Beyond that, there’s no change of techniques and practices. It’s not like a staircase at all; everything’s a very evolutionary process. When you are on the first level, as you go along, you begin to develop possibilities and qualities of the next step. And then, as you begin to lose the idea that the first step is the only way, you begin to discover something else. You begin to grow like a tree. It is a very general process, and therefore it is very dangerous to pin down that you belong to a different type of experience, a different level.
Student: Both you and Shunryu Suzuki Roshi speak of the path as being dangerous. I always
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