On Palestine by Noam Chomsky, Ilan Pappé, Frank Barat Page A
Tags: Political Science, middle east
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Such that Israelâs major military industry, Rafael, moved their management headquarters to Washington, because thatâs where the money is.
IP: Sometimes you target Israelis elites and you condemn them for their complacency or their direct involvement in the atrocities. You are also in a way, targeting the octopus that is America, in this respect.
NC: If you make it clear. Not if you do not talk about it.
IP: I agree, you have to clarify. Thatâs a good point.
FB: Can pressure from the bottom up, from civil society, through the boycott movement and other tactics, change US policies?
NC: I think that US foreign policy as in every other case will have to change because of pressure from the bottom. Take South Africa. It was popular pressure which finally induced Congress and even businesses to begin to pull out of South Africa. It could not get to the executive. Reagan vetoed congressional sanctions, but there was enough popular pressure for Congress to override the vetoes. Reagan had then to violate the congressional legislation. Popular pressure did make a difference. Thatâs the same on every other issue. Civil rights, women rights, whatever it may be. Thatâs what has to be done here too. Now, does BDS contribute to that? It could. In fact, it has not much, it might have even been harmful, the way it has been conducted, but it could. If there is groundwork laid by educational programs among the public which makes these actions understandable, helps explain whatâs happening, and if you can work it out, is directed specifically toward the USA. So for example, the Jordan Valley. I do not think this has been done in the US, it should be. Boycotting products of the Jordan Valley. First of all it harms the Jordan Valley settlement project, but much more significantly, it brings out here that the USA and Israel have a policy of depopulating the Jordan Valley, which is a real ethnic cleansing. Kicking the Palestinians out, whose population is now down to sixty thousand, compared to a couple of hundred thousands in 1967. There is a systematic policy of displacing them, replacing them by Jewish settlements, which leads the way to a form of annexation which would completely imprison any Palestinian entity that might arise somehowâin 30 percent of the West Bank. The US is backing these actions and policies. Something simple like boycotting products is an entry point to bringing out all of these issues. Among the general public thatâs intelligible. In fact itâs already been pretty successful. One of the major successes, to a large extent thanks to young Palestinian activists, has been in the colleges. The atmosphere in the universities around these issues has radically changed. Not many years ago, if I was talking even here, at MIT, on Israel/Palestine, I would have had to have police protection. Now itâs totally different. If we were to give a talk tomorrow, we would get a huge audience, engaged, you could not get a hostile question. Thatâs an enormous change, and that can be extended.
Activism among young people has sparked broader popular movements. Itâs true for the civil rights movement, the antiwar movement. That can have a large effect and itâs a matter of considerable concern for the Zionist organizations. They are talking about it, writing about it, they are worried about it. They realize that they are losing the youth. Thatâs going to affect the population. Pretty much like in other cases. It can make a big difference. It tends to be played down in elite discussions. But if you look closely, even in the documentary record, you can see the effect. Take Vietnam again. One of the most interesting parts of the Pentagon Papers, which is never discussed because it is too inflammatory, is at the very end. The Pentagon Papers end in mid-1968, right after the Tet offensive, a big uprising in South Vietnam, which goes on for a couple of months. The president wanted to
IP: Sometimes you target Israelis elites and you condemn them for their complacency or their direct involvement in the atrocities. You are also in a way, targeting the octopus that is America, in this respect.
NC: If you make it clear. Not if you do not talk about it.
IP: I agree, you have to clarify. Thatâs a good point.
FB: Can pressure from the bottom up, from civil society, through the boycott movement and other tactics, change US policies?
NC: I think that US foreign policy as in every other case will have to change because of pressure from the bottom. Take South Africa. It was popular pressure which finally induced Congress and even businesses to begin to pull out of South Africa. It could not get to the executive. Reagan vetoed congressional sanctions, but there was enough popular pressure for Congress to override the vetoes. Reagan had then to violate the congressional legislation. Popular pressure did make a difference. Thatâs the same on every other issue. Civil rights, women rights, whatever it may be. Thatâs what has to be done here too. Now, does BDS contribute to that? It could. In fact, it has not much, it might have even been harmful, the way it has been conducted, but it could. If there is groundwork laid by educational programs among the public which makes these actions understandable, helps explain whatâs happening, and if you can work it out, is directed specifically toward the USA. So for example, the Jordan Valley. I do not think this has been done in the US, it should be. Boycotting products of the Jordan Valley. First of all it harms the Jordan Valley settlement project, but much more significantly, it brings out here that the USA and Israel have a policy of depopulating the Jordan Valley, which is a real ethnic cleansing. Kicking the Palestinians out, whose population is now down to sixty thousand, compared to a couple of hundred thousands in 1967. There is a systematic policy of displacing them, replacing them by Jewish settlements, which leads the way to a form of annexation which would completely imprison any Palestinian entity that might arise somehowâin 30 percent of the West Bank. The US is backing these actions and policies. Something simple like boycotting products is an entry point to bringing out all of these issues. Among the general public thatâs intelligible. In fact itâs already been pretty successful. One of the major successes, to a large extent thanks to young Palestinian activists, has been in the colleges. The atmosphere in the universities around these issues has radically changed. Not many years ago, if I was talking even here, at MIT, on Israel/Palestine, I would have had to have police protection. Now itâs totally different. If we were to give a talk tomorrow, we would get a huge audience, engaged, you could not get a hostile question. Thatâs an enormous change, and that can be extended.
Activism among young people has sparked broader popular movements. Itâs true for the civil rights movement, the antiwar movement. That can have a large effect and itâs a matter of considerable concern for the Zionist organizations. They are talking about it, writing about it, they are worried about it. They realize that they are losing the youth. Thatâs going to affect the population. Pretty much like in other cases. It can make a big difference. It tends to be played down in elite discussions. But if you look closely, even in the documentary record, you can see the effect. Take Vietnam again. One of the most interesting parts of the Pentagon Papers, which is never discussed because it is too inflammatory, is at the very end. The Pentagon Papers end in mid-1968, right after the Tet offensive, a big uprising in South Vietnam, which goes on for a couple of months. The president wanted to
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